Valerie Elliott, Consumer Editor
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Meat, fish, fruit and vegetables can continue to be sold in pounds and ounces in Britain indefinitely, after a U-turn by the European Commission.
The decision, disclosed in a letter made public last night, also means that fabrics, carpets and timber and other building materials can be sold in yards, feet or inches. Road signs can remain in miles per hour.
The move delighted consumers and shopkeepers after a campaign by the Metric Martyrs that had been backed by the Conservative Party and the British Weights and Measures Association.
The British Retail Consortium and other organisations representing butchers, fishmongers, greengrocers and market traders had also lobbied hard to save imperial measures.The campaigners scented victory after saving the crown on a pint glass this year.
Their instincts were confirmed by Günther Verheugen, the Industry Commissioner, who agreed that dual marking of goods in Britain in imperial and metric measures can continue indefinitely.
Brussels has insisted previously that the traditional British weights and measures should disappear from labels and shop counters by 2009.
Business lobbyists said that keeping pounds and ounces made it easier for British companies to sell to the United States. Mr Verheugen, who is German, informed Giles Chichester, MEP, the Tory industry spokesman at the European Parliament, about the change. He will publish a formal amendment this year.
The Commissioner’s spokeswoman said: “His intention is to propose that in simple terms the use of supplementary indications would be granted an indefinite extension.”
The decision prompted calls for a posthumous pardon for the original metric martyr, Steve Thoburn, a greengrocer who was prosecuted for selling goods in pounds and ounces.
Six years ago he was convicted by Sunderland magistrates of selling produce on scales that could not weigh in metric measures. He died three years ago, days after learning that his appeal to the European Court of Human Rights had been lost.
Neil Herron, a former fishmonger and campaigns director for Metric Martyrs, said: “This is a monumental victory . . . . We have saved the pint, the mile, the yard and the foot as well as pounds and ounces.
“All that remains now for the campaign is to insist on a royal pardon to quash the criminal conviction that Steve took with him to his grave.”
Mr Herron said that the prosecution should never have taken place, adding that the name of Mr Thoburn would be “chiselled into the pages of the history books”.
He said: “The public had never wanted or asked for imperial measures to be abolished and no political party had ever put it in their manifesto that they intended to criminalise the use of imperial measures.”
Mr Chichester claimed credit for the latest decision, saying: “After saving the crown on the British pint, I am happy that the Conservatives have persuaded the Commission that it is good, not only for international business but for the British people, that traditional measurements are kept.
“I just hope there won’t be any more need for Metric Martys and that the Government will avoid forcing metrication down the public’s throat.”
David Delaney, of the British Weights and Measures Association, said: “We have campaigned for 25 years to ensure choice in measures and faced many defeats.”
A recent association survey found that 80 per cent of people preferred imperial measurements. Some 70 per cent, including most 18 to 24-year-olds, can make sense of weights only in pounds and ounces.
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Why the hell is it any of the government's business what units anything is sold in at the grocery store anyway, as long as the people on both sides of the counter are happy with the outcome? All of you metric jihad people ought to chill the hell out. If you're so desperately offended over being sold to in pints, pounds, chains, and stone, shop elsewhere! Are you really so obsessed with ruling your neighbors lives that you'd have them tossed in the slammer for dividing their wares differently than you'd prefer?
Sandro, Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
We Yanks like the English system as well. Yes, our gallon is slightly different and we don't use stone for weight, but we like and use inches, feet and yards and miles. We share the English heritage. The metric system was a big flop here in the US. The only thing that is regularly sold in metric measure are soft drinks - liter bottles, for example. And nuts and bolts in cars are usually metric nowadays. That's about all.
Al Klein, Drexel Hill, PA USA
Backing down from pushy Brussels bureaucrats encourages them. So, don't budge! Be like me. I just keep in my mind that old saying, "If you give them a 0.0254 meter, they'll take a 1609.344 meter."
Jim, Houston, Texas, America
I have never heard an pro-imperial argument beyond "it just works" and "we are used to it" -- and with this kind of thinking we would have never left the trees.
BorekL, Usti nad Labem, Czech Republic
The English system is far superior to the metric system. The English system evolved over hundreds of years through trade and building activities. The metric system was one man's pipedream. A measuring system has to relate to human activity, not just a meaningless set of numbers. If the metric system was valid, it would have evolved through the centuries instead of the English system.
Pete Hosey, Sylacauga, Alabama USA
One point not yet aired is the position of those of us with an interest in vintage/historic machines, cars motorbikes etc.if I need a 1/4 inch B.S.F. bolt ,then that is what I need. It should not be illegal for someone to sell it !! there is no such animal as a 6.35 B.S.F. bolt, a metric thread bolt will not fit.I daily use both imperial and metric measurments to some very fine limits in my engineering activities and have no problem with either.However some foreign and older British machines were/are built using imperial sizes there is no escape from that.We still need to service these items so the requisit drills taps etc. should remain legally on sale.By the way would gold still be traded in Troy ounces and what about oil sold by the barrel, or diamonds sold by carat? The reason for these measurements are historic and are specific to allow trading to take place, it has nothing to do with dogma. Is a horse still measured in hands? What are the metric steam pipe sizes?
Graham, Blackburn, Lanc's
"15 mins for beef, 20 for lamb and 25 for pork. Funny figures if you multiply by 2.2" - not really. Elementary maths gives you 33 minutes for (a kilo of) beef, 44 for lamb and 55 for pork. 33,44,55 - hardly the hardest numbers to remember, and considerably easier than trying to remember how many ounces there are in a pound, and how many pounds in a stone (heaven forfend that it might be the same number!).
Nick James, Bristol,
Personally I am glad we got this decision. It is not really about what system we use, but the fact that the UK has the choice to use it's own system & not one imposed by a bunch of bureaucrats in a foreign country. The sooner we stop accepting & implementing intrusive and ultimately pointless laws from the EU, that no other EU country seems to implement if it doesn't suit them, the better we will be.
As to the impact on Medicine & Science - I agree with Gemma, Guildford - anybody who regularly deals with measurement who is worth their salt is explicit about what their unit of measure is. Sloppy workmanship should not be blamed on units of measure.
RP, Bucks, UK,
About time, its time all the supermarkets returned to pounds and ounces and the BBC stopped insisting on metric as well. I am thirty and can only work properly in general life in Imperial. It is because that is what is around us, thankfully even now.
The majority of us do not want metric as we have no use for it, Imperial works for us and needs no justification beyond that. The kids at school should be taught in both systems although with an accent on Imperial as it is in general use in the UK.
If you are so fond of metric, move to France, dont change my life just to match an unknown foreign states policy.
By the way, why does the French gentleman who has posted more than once care what we system measure in?
Matt, Nottingham, England
All you people that say Imperial measurements have had their day, or that people that use them are simpletons have got it SO wrong. A system of measurement that cannot 'see' a part of the whole as a whole in it's self is a system prone to errors. A case in point, please tell me what the WHOLE is for a 1/3 of 1 metric unit?? I can tell you a 1/3 of a yard is 1 foot or 12 inches, a whole number that can be worked with. Take this one, half a metric unit and then give me a 1/3?? Half a yard you get 18 inches or a foot and a half, a third is 6" (inches) again a whole number that can be worked with. When you have to be precise with your measurements Imperial's come out on top more often than one made to try and make a country so different from another because the ruler lost a war. As for those trying to tell us that Imperial is only used in the UK and US have not travelled, go to Spain or South America and you can buy a pound of any fruit you want from the old markets.
Steve, Reading, United Kingdom
What a fuss over nothing. We've been living, teaching, buying in metric for over 30 years. We're still metric, all this does is allow "supplementary indications" in imperial, That means more confusing signs in shops with prices like 89p per lb for oranges and £1.90 per kg for apples. Some help that is!
I have no interest in what system we use. I was a kid when the european legislatino was adopted....lets move on.
garygilmore, Glasgow,
EEC regulations cannot possibly be legally enforcible here in England without the consent of the electorate.
Since we have never been consulted we should not have to abide by regulations proposed by unelected foreigners.
CLIVE BURGHARD Lancing West Sussex, LANCING, ENGLAND
The sooner pounds and ounces are consigned to history, the better. I'm now well above the average age of the UK population, yet I was taught at school in metric units, which make far more sense in every respect. Would the reactionary diehards rather we went back to pounds, shillings and pence as well?
Hilary, London,
Well, I see I haven't got an answer to my question to the pro-metric crowd. Again, why is soap powder sold in litres and not lbs? Also, topsoil in bags is also in litres; why not lbs.? I really would like to know!!
Marg, Comox, Canada
shame on all of you for wanting to retain archaic measurements. my children were taught metric only, the oldest is now 29 and still has to use 2 systems. shame on you !
david phillips, northampton,
"messy mix"??? i use stones for my weight, miles for long distances, metres for short, and pints for, well, pints... i dont find it confusing at all, and in fact these little quirks just make british life that bit more unique. Anyone one with an opinion against the use of both needs to step back and realise that it is such a stupid piece of legislation in the first place that had no democratic founding and wastes time.
ben , bridport, uk
If the Americans can send men into space on feet and inches, I'd say Imperial measurements were far from outdated. Enough said. Wise ruling for a change.
N. Taylor, Albury, Australia
Dear Ian in London, around 5,280 feet in a mile, and 14 pounds in a stone (2240 pounds in a ton). Hope that helps.
I am 40 years old and for the life of me, I can't figure out kilometers. Give me miles any day.
I weigh myself in stones and pounds, and buy my fruit and veg in pounds. My street has a 20 mile an hour limit, and the ruler I use at my desk still lets me measure things in inches, thankfully.
I'm British, and I want my country to retain British things. Like the pound for instance (weight and monetary). I have no problem with the wonderful cultural, religious and ethnic mix here, my own family are Irish, and I work with Chinese and Egyptian people, but Britian has to make a start somewhere in defining Britian, and part of that is in the way we deal with everyday things, such as weights and measures.
I am all for closer integration with with other countries, especially in Europe, but why should that mean we lose our own, uniquely British social and economic identity?
Jenny Hynes, Plymouth, England
Keeping an ancient measure system is not a horrible think to happen. People won´t begin to think metric as long as they don´t need it, that's a fact.. Either by being force to do it or if it were essential in their noadays transactions with continentals; another way to say being forced, people won't change. It is not about keeping your culture, is about keeping your mental response quick.
We continentals still counting in our former currencies for every amount which is not common in our everyday lifes.
I'm glad you got your break.
Gustavo Díaz García, El Vellón, Madrid (Spain)
Great. So, accompanied solely by the US, we will continue to trudge along in a confusing and messy mix of imperial and metric. No other country in the World suffers this mess; why should we?
How many feet in a mile? How many pounds in a stone / ton? To try and argue that you can't convert recipes to metric shows how utterly moronic this situation is... How does the entire rest of the World cope?
Ian, London, UK
I don't see why people are against this. It isn't making it illegal to use metric, only refusing to criminalize imperial measures. Perhaps I'm quaint, but I thought Britain was a democracy, and if 80% of people want to allow imperial measures, then what possible right can unelected Eurocrats have to take it away?
Andrew, Atlanta, Ga/USA
the luddites have finaly won
vincent ryan, kilkenny, ireland
Hurrah! I can now get a 6pint bottle of milk in the supermarket instead of yelling "Dear, can you pick up a BIG milk while you're out please"
An old codger at 29.... oh dear.
Lindsay, Bristol,
Good fo them! And stop whining as if the world's ended because a traditional and functional system has been kept as a supplementary indication. No one's getting rid of metric!
It's not simply about wanting a pound of steak or a quarter of lemon sherbets - it's about image perception and ease of use. I for one have no mental picture of how many kilometres I'd have to walk to travel a mile, or how fast I'd be travelling in kph, and when I'm told I've bought 500 gms of something I translate it as just over a pound. Easy - see? You'll find that jam, honey etc are rarely packaged in 500 gm jars anyway - the jars are still designed to hold a pound... or less, even though we think we're buying a pound!
As for the supposed accidents caused by mixing up Imperial and Metric units... that's pure incompetence by the engineers - never heard of checking and quality control?
H Brady, Warwick,
Great news. I am fed up with the EU meddling in our affairs. We have this ludicrous system where we are forced to buy petrol in litres and yet quote fuel consumption in miles per gallon. I just wonder how many people can actually work out how many MPG their car does or how many litres it will use on that 300 mile journey they are planning. I think I will celebate this common sense decission by ppoping out for a pint... not a 568 ml..or whatever it is.
nick wiiliams , Sheffield,
How sad that your Business Editor (of "The Times" of all papers) cannot get her facts right. There is a real distinction between permitting "supplementary indications" and permitting sales in pounds and ounces!
The requirement to sell in metric units will remain "as is"; the proposal (and it remains just that) simply maintains the present position where equivalent imperial indications may be given alongside the metric ones.
As for Mr Trevor's comments, I never realised that the mass of the pound must have been fixed by some relationship with the cooking times. Are his joints exact multiples of a pound? If not, does he really find it "natural" to calculate the cooking time for a 2lb 13 1/4 ounces joint on the basis of some conveniently arbitrary figure of 15/20/25 mins/lb? One wonders how on Earth the French manage?
Everyone needs A (single) System of Measurement - no-one needs TWO!
ChrisH, Birmingham, UK
For God's Sake, give us a break!!!! Who cares? except those who continually believe in being harrassed by the EU....
Yes, keep the pound, the inches, the yards and stones, the miles and gallons....It makes Britain so "foreign" to EU continentals....just like the road signs signaling that you now leave Britain for......Europe....Sorry, I was about to shed a tear...Much fuss for nothing...
have a good day.
saunier, Dinan, FR / EU
The metric system is just as arbitrary as any other system. Its sole recommendation is that it is decimal based, making for easier conversion between units.
I note with great satisfaction that one original element of the metric system, metric time, was a crashing failure.
The main problem I have with the metric system is that it was invented in France. They couldn't get the rest of the world to adopt the French language, so they are settling on the next best thing.
When the French adopt English as their language, maybe we will adopt their metric system!
Ben Hoff, NJ, USA
I suppose Britain needs something to remain of its culture, what with all the multiculturalism coming in...! Yes, keep the pound and the imperial measuring system, that'll make everything glorious again.
It means nothing.
AK, London,
I'm quite sure that neither my granddaughter nor any of her friends have the foggiest idea about the Imperial system beyond a dimly remembered history lesson. It's only we geriatrics who still think in imperial! By all means keep it going for us, we know what we are asking for in Imperial measure, in exactly the same way that children know and think in the metric system. As long as both are displayed then everyone is happy. PS I can do litres to gallons!
Bill Glanvill, Horsham , Sussex , England
It is right that Britain should not be forced by the EU to metricate. It is a disgrace that we did not complete the transition ourselves years ago. We signed up to go metric in 1875, long before the EU was conceived. We are the laughing stock of the 241 other countries who have successfully adopted SI units, and are losing out on trade with them.
Mike Oxley, Farnham Common, UK
I agree, that is great news! Although Canada is officially "metric", prices advertised for meat, fruits and vegetables are given in both Imperial and Metric, so at least one has some idea how much they "really" cost. And, by the way, can anyone tell me why soap powder is sold in litres, and not the more logical grams or kilograms??
Marg, Comox, Canada
I don't see what all the fuss is about. Why can't people have the free will to buy things in imperial measures? As for the space probes, I think that was due to a lack of communication in the units, note that British scientists use SI units. As a scientist I know the importance of being careful with my units.
On a somewhat unrelated note, Sean maybe you should consider going to that butcher or fishmonger and try and keep independant businesses alive (they are happy to trade in metric and you will get a much better product than what Tescos ever sell)
Gemma, Guildford, UK
Perhaps Paul Trusten of Midland. Texas feels right to maintain his simplistic view. His fear of errors arising in medication could well be realised in a world peopled of little brain power. Clearly he has no understanding of anything more complicated and technical.
The Europeans have developed in their own way, which is an excellent way for the simple-minded to go about their daily tasks. At a time when the British system, with its fearsome weights and measures much in evidence, was opening the door of enlightenment to less fortunate people, the best achievement that the European countries could deliver was rank exploitation and repression to the less fortunate without giving anything meaningful back at all.
Have you heard of the expression 'dumbing down' Mr. Trusten? You are part of it. Maybe we all deserve to be artifiially 'dumbed down'. When you Europeans have achieved your aim, there won't be an ounce of individual intelligence left. Shame on you! Do you fear evolution so much?
D. O'Rorke, Farnham, Surrey
The metric lobby all tell us that it cuts out confusion. I used to be able to go to the shops and buy a bottle of beer which would either be a pint or a half. Now with this wonderful new metric system I am presented with 250ml, 275ml, 330ml, 440ml, 500ml, 550ml, 568ml,600ml,660ml,700ml,750ml 1 litre and 1.5 litres. You need to be an Einstein to compare prices. BRING BACK THE PINT IN THE SUPERMARKETS. We could then compare prices with thoose in the pubs.
stuart wiiliams , Sheffield, uk
Little Englanders!!
The only two large countries in the world that use the metric system are the USA and the UK. 95% of the world uses metirc.
The metric system is going to be adopted in this country, the earlier the better.
But maybe we will have to wait till all the old codgers with the the fantasy notion that we all drink real ale, buy from fishmongers (when was the last time you went to a fishmonger or butcher?) , play cricket, have pictures of the Queen above the mantelpiece, eat a sunday roast etc, etc, ....
Sean, Richmond, Surrey
In addition to the potential for mistakes in the medical profession, there are at least two well-known examples in the space industry where confusion between metric and other units caused problems - one of them led to a space probe being destroyed. As an engineer, I see no reason to hang onto an outdated and illogical system of measurements. Most of us have ten digits on our hands, so why hang onto measurements that work in multiples of 12, 14 or other numbers?
Neil, Baku, Azerbaijan
This decision is a disaster, I am no lover of the EU but to continue measuring in units based on a medieval king's foot or thumb is plainly ridiculous. It's time Britain moved on!
T A Jones, Grays.,
Even though imperial measures have some charm...this decision is just another proof of Britain's reluctance to join mainstream Europe....over 400 million citizens in the EU use kilos, centimeters and kilometers....except the Brits ....I have great respect for my British fellow citizens...however, couldn't we imagine both measures? They swichted from the imperial currency system almost 34 years ago...from £1 = 20/; 1/= 12d....Well, it's high time they did the same for measures now. Keep your pints in pubs but for God's sake....get rid of your ounces, pounds, stones, inches and yards.....It doesn't make sense to anyone except to 300 US citizens and 60 million Brits. Even Australia, Canada and NZ use the metric syst, why don't you???
saunier, Dinan, FR / EU
I hate pounds and ounces - can't think in them at all, but it seems to me that people should be free to use pounds, ounces or any other unit of measurement they fancy. It is really none of the commissions business what units my greengrocer prefers so long as he is honest about it.
Jonathan Lowenstein, Tel-Aviv , Israel
Well done all involved, great news. A welcome step on the way out ( I hope! ).
Peter Davis, Reading., Berks.
ask a teenager how long a foot is, or how heavy a pound is, and he/she wont have a clue. A qaiunt but pointless decision.
gm, london, uk
and I am sure that carrying guns in the US are bad for health - but there again I suppose it's good for the pharmacists as it increases the the use of drugs! Less said about that the better eh!!
I still prefer buying stuff in pounds & ounces! Well done I say.
Kevin Ash, Ashford, UK
Bring back rods, perches and poles. It's all gone to pot since we abolished the groat. When will England move into the 21st century?
David R Jones, Leatherhead, UK
As a former resident of Sutton which has a Metric Martyr fruiterer I am delighted but only wish that metric weights were abolished. It is not possible to cook meat in metric. 15 mins for beef, 20 for lamb and 25 for pork. Funny figures if you multiply by 2.2 The time has come for the EU to take direct instructions from the UK government and obey our rules and for the UK government to stop being pushed around by a lot of unelected foreigners.
Edward Trevor, MBE, St Helier, Jersey
How can anything like this be of that importance?
Jane, Sheffield,
Perhaps the BBC will take note also and stop insisting that metric is used in its programmes.
This is good news and only confirms what is happening. By the way, copper tube in Germany in sold as half inch and bicycle frame sizes are in inches so German industry will not have to change and this is probably the reason why it has been kept.
Johnny Norfolk, Mileham, Norfolk
In the National and Local governments' legal battle to beat the Metric Martyrs legal battle, the Law was deemed to require that the Constitution (Constitutional Acts) such as the Magna Carta could not be ignored by later Acts.
Why is this change still being ignored by Government which now widely convicts on the word of official/s alone rather than allowing a jury to decide?
Brian Gilbert, HAMPTON, Middx
What a rubbish article! Totally misleading. It changes nothing. Metric units will remain the only legal units. All that it means is that non-metric units can remain as supplementary units. It will still not be legal to sell by the pound.
chris, Glloucester, UK
British people are simpletons.
Rob, London,
As an advocate for the metric system in the U.S., and especially as a U.S. pharmacist, I bemoan Mr. Delaney's comment about the ensurance of choice in units of measurement. While I always retain great affection for the British people, I cannot share their proclivity for using a system of measurement that represents only illogic and stubbornness on both sides of the pond. In medicine and pharmacy, the continued reference to both pounds and kilograms, inches and centimeters---a measurement culture that leaks into hospitals and pharmacies from the street--- leaves the door open for dosage errors in medications. If you prefer the poetry of Imperial measure, I ask that you decide to consign it to poetry, and keep it out of daily discourse, where, in the long run, it will cause harm to the economy and to health.
Paul Trusten, R.Ph.,U.S. Metric Association, Inc., Midland, Texas USA
Well done folks and thankyou.
Steve, Derbyshire, UK
Wonderful news. Congratulations all round.
Christopher Hall, Sheffield,
When I lived in the Holland in the early 70's I was fully prepared for everything to be in metric only to find that when I went to buy gas fittings that they were "half inch". I bought some nuts and bolts only to find out that they were quarter inch BSW. The butchers sold sliced meat by the "once" (100gms) and apples were sold by the "pond" (pound). In Belgian pubs a beer is referred to as a "pintje" (small pint). When I came back to England I went to a timber yard to buy 8ft of 4X2 only to be told "you do realise that it will only be 7ft 10 sir - that's because we've gone metric and a unit of 30 cms was the nearest we could get to a foot". On the continent long lengths are expressed in metres and cms, measurements you can visualise, not the ridiculous millimetres. I went to a restaurant in the UK run by a German woman and being a bit rebellious, on seeing 9 inch mushroom pizzas on offer, asked If I could just have the 9 inch mushrooms.! "Ve do not sell zem separately" was the reply.
David Elliott, Brighton, UK