Try breaking into the legal world of Northern Ireland and then you'll know the hardship of finding a training contract. There are no traineeships available due to the economic downturn. I've graduated with a 2.1 and guaranteed place at the IPLS but no training contract to take up my place.

J Simpson, Belfast, N. Ireland

i'm one of those in 2.2 ranks - from an ex polytec. but i also have a master in french law (same grade, as it was a double degree). although i do have extenuating circumstances, i don't really see myself putting them forward. so:
- do you think a postgrad 2:1 would help?
- or more work experience?

mira, paris, france

Cait - if your concerned about your A-level results, ring the GR people at the firms you're applying to. Clearly you have extenuating circumstances and your degree results show you're capable. Wouldn't worry about it at all. Good luck!

Lucy, London,

Training contract is a tough one to secure. I agree. but I also agree that its not impossible to get. I have been trying for 2 years but no luk, Head down, heart broken, faith abandoned I came across this saying which gave me strength:

"Its not how hard you hit, Its how long you can take it",

So all you people out there ! dont let your faith sail away. Keep the masts up and wind will be back in your sails and we will reach the horizon.

Imran, London, UK

I am on track for a 2.1 at university and despite all the negativity I'm still looking forward to a career in law! However, I only achieved BCC in my A levels due to illness. Will this majorly detract from a good degree and the extra curricular activities I am involved in?

I know it will hinder my applications and perhaps lead to being rejected by some firms, but should I be looking further than the City firms I've set my sights on?

Cait, Canterbury,

Trying to obtain a training contract is possibly one of the most difficult, time-consuming and monotonous processes.

I am honestly losing the will to live... The same questions over and over again...

lauren, London,

Well i've read all the comments and I have to say that stories i've read from the mature students really have encouraged me. I don't have a job nor do I have to support anyone (Thank God), I do not have an excuse. Thank you all for clarifying that to me.
Im just about to start my 1st year course work and this has been the motivation I so desperatly needed.
Thank you!

Sami, Colchester, Essex

here is my case people; i have got Law degree 2:2 from India then LLM 2:1 from Birmingham University. my A levels are not good, starting GDL with the college of law in sep 2008 then planning to move onto LPC for securing a training contract in some good firm!!! Now what do you all think about yourself. is your case worse than me?!

What do you say about getting a paralegal job first rather than running after training contracts straight away. i think once you get into the law firm then its easier to secure a training contract after max 2 years and i think pay is also good with good firms

Tufail, Birmingham, UK

This is in reply to Asif from Stoke, I managed to work in a bar, spent far too much time drinking in many bars and clubs, represented a University sports teams and dealt with being diagnosed dyslexia and care for a great aunt in her 80's - yet I still managed to get a 2:1 from a red brick university.
So please feel free to put me in my place.

Peter, Chester, United Kingdom

If the world of law is so competitive and they only want 2:1's and above then why are Law schools ripping off students by taking them on if they have not a cat in hells chance of getting a training contract - its immoral and the Law Society should do something about it.

Sian, Leeds, UK

I'm now in my third year of Law at the University of Leicester. Most students who were set on doing law in the first year have now chosen a 'back-up' plan due to the horror stories. I say the more students dropping out the better for me! If you have a love for Law and have the academic and experience to back it up, you'll make it! It's the fear of rejection which seems to put off those who aren't determined! Although I haven't got a training contract, I can see it just around the corner. Once my LPC is finished, I do not plan to sit on my ass and wait for a job offer to appear through the post, I'll do my masters and gain more experience to show perserverance and commitment! Good luck to all you dedicated lawyer2b's out there!

Arzu Hussein, Oadby, Leicestershire,

This is directed at babara in reference to her comment on 2.2 law students.

A person who juggles a part time job to finance their education, as well as family commitments and a good social position (not a social outcast or popular amungst the library group)

Has skills which far superceed any 2.1 law student who only worries about their grades and finding a training contract.

I challenge any 2.1 candidate who thinks because i have a lesser degree from a lesser university.
I will put you in your place before you have a chance to blink, academically and socially.

For all candidates currently looking for a training contract, keep your head up, you have alot to offer, and just because you had not decided that you wanted to be a lawyer at the age of 3 does not mean that people who did are any better.

Power to the people

Asif, stoke, united kingdom

I'm struggling to understand why this is all such a mystery to so many people. Law is a popular and competetive industry, ergo to succeed you need the whole package. And a strong educational background, whilst only one factor, is a very important factor.
If 100 people apply for a training contract, all with great A' level results, a good degree, work experience and great people skills, why should they be overlooked in favour of someone with a 2:2 from a lesser university?
The reality is that the legal profession is intellectually elitist. And why should it not be?
And yes, just because you have that 2:2 from a mediocre university, doesn't mean you wouldn't make a great lawyer. But come on! What are they meant to do?! There are only so many people that can physically be interviewed for one job! And believe me, it's not just people with 2:2s who get rejected without interview...
Don't cry over it. Be a bit more thick skinned...If you're not good enough, do something else.

barbara, london,

Being a sixth form a-level student and listining to the many problems and obstacles law students face, is putting me off pursuing a career in law.

Is there anything positive about being a law student ???

Is everyone just plain pessimistic ??

Whenever asking a college lecturer,university admissions officer or a careers advisor about the problems facing law students, i recive the same blank response " a career in law is often very rewarding" Thats not waht i asked !!!!

I might just do history.

A-level student, London,

Many of the 'complainers' are protesting that a 2:2 precludes their entry to the profession. Therefore they are, by definition, less qualified on paper than those who do.

Whether they have equal ability to practise law to those who do secure TC's is a moot (and separate) point because, where thousands of applications are received per post, it is surely logistically impossible to interview all of those who are let down by their qualifications in the hope that they may nevertheless be good practitioners?! Undoubtedly this is unfortunate for the many whose grades mask their true abilities, but is an example of market forces at work.

As for law students ill-advisedly self-sponsoring themselves through the GDL/LPC, surely aspiring professionals should be credited with enough intelligence to make a realistic assessment of their own prospects? If they rely solely on propaganda from money making LPC providers to base a multi £thousand decision, then more fool them!

Magic Circle Associate, London,

What people are failing to understand from the "complainers" is that they are no less able or qualified than the "lucky ones". The legal recruitment process is a lottery and an expensive one. From this thread alone it is plain to see that even the most dedicated and talented students are failing and to secure postgraduate employment and are suffering as a result. Law colleges / schools should act in the interests of the students but the colleges are money making-institutions and nothing more. These colleges portray a very positive picture of the legal market / profession and this is jumped upon by less that honorable banks who make big promises to these ill-advised students that never come to fruition when push comes to shove. I feel so sorry for the thousands of law students graduating into this situation every single year!

law grad, London,

Three years studying law at Cambridge has completely demoralised me. Law is a nit picking boring subject that ought to be interesting, but is not. Many authors go great lengths to make what should be an intellectually stimulating subject as dull as possible. To obtain a training contract one has to apply in the autumn of the second year. This is not even halfway through your degree! If you miss this deadline you have to pay £10K for the LPC. This acts as a filter for poor people unsure whether they really want to comit to 60+ hours a week doing a mind numbing, yet well paid job that could be done by any decent graduate. The Law would be better without the LPC. It would be improved further if city lawyers were motivated by justice instead of greed, but this is unlikely to ever happen.

law graduate, Bournenmouth,

I completely agree with Rachel from Hampshire's opinion that a successful law career in the city depends on the committment you have to offer, this is not for everyone and that is fine. However I would like to question just how committed Rachel herself is when she turns down five interviews, which in themselves are difficult to obtain, in order to go on holiday at a time she should have known firms were hiring. This leads me to question just how suitable she herself is for a training contract. I would suggest to her that before she begins questioning how others handle their application she considers just how dedicated she is herself.

Emma, Essex,

I agree with TM. I got a 2.2 from a good university. I subsequently obtained a TC with a major bank. The recruitment process definitely concentrated on what I was like as a person, not just what degree result I got. However, I think major city firms are narrow sighted when it comes to recruitment as being a good lawyer is not just about spouting off the relevant law, its about being able to interact with clients and other professionals. Which helps if you have a personality!

Eilidh, Edinburgh, UK

It seems to me that many people posting their thoughts are looking for excuses for why they do not have training contracts. Using the excuse I could not afford to do work experience or its not fair that I cannot apply because I got a 2:2. If you are that determined you will achieve a 2:1 and if you don't frankly you are probably not suitable for a legal career. I'm just about to enter my final year of law and have been offered interviews at everywhere I applied (except 1 I'm waiting to hear from). In my opinion to be successful you must target your applications and really show why you want to work for a firm. One final piece of advice don't book holidays I had to turn down 5 interviews due to travelling in Thailand... big mistake but fingers crossed for the interview next week!

Rachel, Hampshire,

Whoever said 'stop complaining, just do it' is spot on.

It still amazes me that people are surprized to find that law is so devoted to academics; wasn't that obvious?

One of the best pieces of advice I've ever heard was told to me by a friend who had been told by a speaker: stop developing your CV and start developing your personality.

(If your struggling to make headway, make you as a person stand out).

CM, Durham,

Would you describe Kings, UCL and LSE as 'lesser' universities? Oxford and Cambridge Law Schools have excellent reputations, however gaining a 2.1 from one of those institutions does not necessarily mean that you are more deserving of a training contract than any other law student or that you will make a better Solicitor.

Sarah

Sarah, London,

I went to a redbrick university and got a 2:2. I know a guy who went to a former polytechnic and achieved a 2:1 in a non Law Degree, then completed a CPE and he is now a more attractive proposition for at least the mid size firms than I would be.

I am certain that it was easier for him to get higher grades than it was for my classmates, he would even admit this. I would say 10 years or so ago, the University you went to was significant, not anymore. We were just unlucky to have done our degrees in such a transitional time.

Now I am struggling financially, finding it difficult to get generic office jobs as my CV is full of Legal work experience. The only jobs I seem to get offered are Telesales and Recruitment(sales!), both of which are mindnumbing.

Studying needs to be more accurately described as the pursuit for knowledge, to think of it as a set career route leaves many frustrated. Im still in my 20s, so I will continue with the TC apps, but I am slowly losing hope!
TIPS?

JayJ, London, UK

Just because you went to Oxbridge is no excuse for getting a 2:2. The brutal fact is that unless you had a legitimate tragedy such as the death of a family member a 2:2 is a failing grade at any University.

HR already take sufficient account of the universities from which students graduate. AAA will be the normal A-levels for most of the trainees. This means that only good unis are well represented at the top firms.

Paul , London,

I am inclined to agree with the law student from Cambridge. As a student at an Oxbridge university I am finding the pressure is a great deal higher than my counterparts at other law schools. Yes, we were aware of the pressure when we applied to the universities but at the same time we are part of a system where many tutors consider anything less than a 2:1 a failure and therefore are forced to put in the hours. There are probably many students who deserve to be in my position a great deal more than I and while I do believe everyone deserves an equal chance when applying for training contracts, it is somewhat frustrating when 2:1's from top 10 universities are considered equal to 2:1's from lesser universities.

law student oxford, Oxford,

I agree that there is far too much complaining here about the fact that you need a 2.1 for most good training contracts - my advice is to get off your butt in University and work for a 2.1 instead of spending three years drinking and hoping that training contracts will fall onto your lap because of contacts or your background.

I grew up on a council estate and have just graduated from an excellent university with a First class LLB by working hard and being determined to prove people wrong. If you want something in life go out and get it!!

carrie, widnes,

I fully agree with the City Trainee. The only way to secure a TC is to cease the complaining and concentrate on the task in hand! I also faced adverse challenges to find my TC but I learned from the experiences gained from each application and interview.

With regard to being unable to afford work experience, clearly vac schemes can be completed during the paid holidays of existing employment. Many vac schemes are salaried and if travel expenses are the only reimbursement, the average vac scheme lasts only a couple of weeks. Look at it this way, if it leads to a TC (as it often does) it is worth a potential six figure sum when you consider the salary, the fringe benefits and the educational funding!

As for professional loans, my legal career would never have taken off without this type of funding. I had devised a plan B for dealing with loan servicing without a TC because, quite obviously, debt management is the responsibility of the individual student and not the bank.

NLT, London, UK

I always cringe when I read about LPC students without sponsorship anticipating problems with their LPC loan. By "LPC loan" I assume they mean that infamous bank loan offered in association with a certain law college, whose name the loan facilities bears.

Why? Because you can be assured that, once graduated, finding no employment out there other than behind the bar pulling pints for minimum wage, that bank's promises and understanding will suddenly dry up and be replaced with hostility and actions amounting to fraudulent misrepresentation and breach of contract. Further, the (former) Law Society, Banking Codes Standard Board, Financial Ombudsman Service, DTI and CAB, will all decide that they hold no responsibility to intervene.

Im guessing, in offering the loan in association with a law college that misleads students about their prospects once graduated from the LPC, the persecution of unfortunate graduates in both intentional and unforgiving.

Anyone agree?

Grad, London,

"I think reforms need to be made where 2.2 should not be ignored by employees and also maybe rise the amount trainee lawyers get paid."

In response to Jay, London's comment above, with English like that, rather than blaming the system, you may need to look a little closer to home when considering why you're struggling to get a TC?! Attention to detail is everything in this career - without that, you cannot survive as a lawyer.

Frankly I'm sick of the moaning. Law is a competitive profession which requires a number of skills OVER AND ABOVE a decent degree. I know many people who have struggled through university from disadvantaged backgrounds and landed first class TC's. Maybe this is because, instead of blaming others, they have worked hard and succeeded in a competitive market?!

As for the 'my A levels are better than yours because I'm 40' brigade, maybe if you'd had the maturity to know what you wanted to do when you were 18, you'd be in a better position now?

City Trainee, London,

I agree with Jan. It was quite discouraging at the beginning when I read so many negative experiences for matured applicants. But nevertheless, I was determined to give it a try. I am currently studying GDL part-time. I have applied for a handful of firm and I am invited for interviews from 2 and 1 expressed interest and requested for my GDL results which is going to come out next month. So it is not so gloomy afterall. The key is to be selective. Target those firms which will value your experiences. Though I must say I am very fortunate that I have friends who are corporate lawyers who provided me with some tips in writing my application.
Don't give up!

KK, London,

I sympathise with the sentiments expressed by the mature students in this 'have your say'. However, I have to admit, this is not my experience. Having got my degree in the mid 1980's, I have worked in marketing ever since, and have just finished a 2 year distance learning GDL. Last summer, I submitted targetted applications to just 3 local, regional law firms (all Lex 100 firms). I was interviewed by 2 of them and offered a training contract by both. In my experience, if you are selective with your applications, there are training contracts out there to be had, and I'm 41 !

Jan, Oxfordshire,

I'm about to start the second year of the part-time LPC at The College of Law, having spent the six years prior to the LPC, studying an LLB part-time as a distance education student (2:1 achieved). I work in a highly demanding job appproximately 50 hours per week and have done so throughout my studies.

With a family to support, full-time study is not an option. I have a large number of application rejections from various law firms.Despite requesting feedback (even in a generic form), I have yet to receive any. It may be my age (approaching 46) but I am fit, healthy, reliable and able to stay up late and still look OK in the morning!

Despite all of this, I refuse to give up. I believe one firm in the UK will recognise my qualities and offer me a training contract.

Please take some 'heart' from my experience; if it's your goal, push the door down if necessary .

Law student in London, London,

The people who say that only degree results count are mistaken. They fail to appreciate how much importance recruiters (and everyone else in the world) attach to being personable, competent and well-balanced (i.e. activities other than studying - EVERYONE, regardless of circumstances, could manage to spend one week of the year doing charity work or attending a law firm placement). I got a 2:2 degree, but I got a training contract at a UK Top 20 firm (who paid for my LPC). I have no doubt that I got my training contract not because of my average academics, but rather because of personality and the fact that my application demonstrated a wide range of interests - part-time job, law firm placement, membership of a football team. At the end of the day, law firms need to know that the trainees they employ have the interpersonal skills to get on well with both clients and colleagues, as well as draft contracts!

AM, Manchester, UK

Maybe students should not do the LPC until they have a training contract.

I've just completed the LPC which i expect will be a distinction; i have a 2.1 law degree; i have a HND in Legal Studies and work experience but not very good A-levels.

I do not have a training contract and I worry every day about how much debt I am in. It may have been better to have known before my LPC whether my qualifications and skills were enough to get me a training contract before getting into more debt. However I, as did many others, believed that by going ahead and completing the LPC it is futher qualifications which may attract firms. I hope so, as the thought of being another law graduate stuck in an awful job just to pay back debts gives me nightmares but I can totally understand how it could happen.

Also I wish when i was a rebellious 18yr old and didn't care about my A-Levels that someone had shook me and told me how important it would be on my CV 6 yrs later.

LPC Student, Bristol, Englang

What I find difficult to get past is the lack of work experience in the legal field. But the truth is that I cannot afford to go for a vacation placement. I have had to support myself since I was 16 years old and through both University and LPC I've always had a job. I cannot just turn to my employer and tell them i'm taking a holiday for a month or so to go on a vacation placement.

But I feel that I am not given a chance to explain this as so far I have not had a single interview!

Natalia, Birmingham,

I had my heart set on a career in law when i was at school and got 2's A's and a B at A-level and have a 68% average in a Classics degree from UCL. In my spare time ive done chariy work and sport but yet despite all this it doesnt seem to be enough. I have spent the year applying to law firms have had nothing but rejections, no interviews but just invitations for 4 open days. i am left to wonder why i am not interviewed - is it because i failed a half module in greek in my first year when my dad was in hospital? is it because i choose not to study Ancient Greek as well as my latin? Is it because i have chosen to do charity work in my spare time rather than showing true leadership skills by being UCL tennis captain? I worry that i wont get a training contract and although i havent quite given up yet i am considering another field for study and I sympathise with people from worse universities with worse degrees trying to get into law!

Sara , London, uk

i feel quiet strongly about they way law students are facing such a big problem finding a training. iam a 3rd year law student who got a 2.2 not because i did not work hard but because of certain circumstances. i have also completed 1 year placement at a law frim and now really worrying about my future. i am already in so much debt just trying to finish my degree but not forgetting the cost of LPC to come. after all this teh thought of not getting a training contract worries me to death. i think reforms need to be made where 2.2 should not be ignored by employees and also maybe rise the amount trainee lawyers get paid. trying to survive with all the inflation and paying of your loans at the same time is a real strain and it needs acknowledgement.

jay, london, london

Something really needs to be done to make the whole route to qualification fairer. A lot of the comments below seem to agree that there is great disparity between candidates getting the same grades but from different universities or eras.

I am about to complete the LPC with a distinction. I have a 2.1 from a good uni and loads of relevant work experience etc. Yet like so many others, I don't have a training contract to go to and I'm looking to other employment sectors to be able to afford to pay off my LPC loan. I've always been dedicated to having a legal career, but the whole application process is disheartening.

Perhaps they should make it harder to do the LPC? Then maybe there wouldn't be such a surplus of unemployed law graduates each year!

TC_applicant, north west,

As a mature student (ha ha still makes me laugh- I am only 31!), with 3 children, who took a full time degree and then worked full time while doing a correspondence LPC over 2 years, I have to admit it makes me sick to see students on here complaining about their work load etc etc. Law is hard work- face up to it, the out of lecture reading, plus the work experience or societies adds up to a large amount of hard work and time management.

Be thankful you are not in my shoes- I have worked hard and got myself a very well paid contract management job (poor me- no that's not why I am sad!) that now means I cannot get a training contract because the drop in salary would bankcrupt me. I would love to be able to apply and see whether my extra experience due to my age would be of benefit or detriment but until training contract salaries go above 35k- there is no point- it just wouldn't support my family. Hopefully a review of the training contract procedure will help...

Contract Manager, Studley, UK

'Vacation Experience' fat chance, when I did my degree I worked from 6 in the evening to 1 in the morning every weekday and all day and night on the weekends when it came to the holidays I was grateful to be working 24-7 because I needed the money.

I suppose alot of university students come from rich families but I only ever met a few students who could afford to work for nothing in the holidays. Still, I got a 2.2 (purely because I never did any revision, hard to revise and serve customers at the bar) and finished my LPC in 2005. I got a training contract in March 06 and now have less than a year to go before I qualify. Oh but I have got to look forward to the professional skills course - purely designed to extract yet more money out of people for our training. Apparently the pass mark for ninety percent of the course is 'attendance'. Brilliant!

Jo, Southend on Sea,

I have now had a few interviews and many confirmed rejections. What I really object to is that firms when recuting do not apply the core duties particulary fairness and integrity, and respond to applications or out come of interviews>

annie, hertfordshire, hertfordshire

Like many other law students, I have had my fair share of interviews. What I find most disgusting and demoralising about the process is that the law firms usually do not have the courtesy to let you know the outcome of your interview.

As time passes you have the knowledge that you are obviously not going to be employed by them;however, chasing up your own rejection is disgraceful considering the amount of time and effort you put into interview preparation.

Lawstudent, London,

i, too, am a mature student with the added burdens age (40), no a-levels (high school degree from canada 20+ years ago) and no uk university (just a ba and an ma from one the minor ivy league unis - only harvard, sometimes yale, seem to count as north american univerisities here)...so no academic track record for an HR person...

and never having written exams and subjected myself to vocational training, i will struggle to get a mediocre 2.1...but as my tutor said - you aren't city material anyway, you're too old ....perhaps he is working for the hr department...

what about the work experience and awards in the film industry? what about the self-financed investment in a career change? does this not offer indication that the firm could make money off my previous expertise and that i am determined to achieve award-winning success in law?

alas, we are judge by numbers...

hannah, london,

I think the cambridge student should read the advice and check spelling, as stated it is errors like this (thise with masters) that will lead to an application being rejected and not the lack of a masters.

LPC student, Nottingham,

The degree snobbery demonstrated by a few is uncalled for and offensive to many who work equally as hard to achieve their degree classifications. In July I applied to a major city firm having only just crept in to the 2:1 bracket in my second year exams - I got an interview. The HR department looked beyond academic abilities and saw that I was an active member of the school of law, having represented them in external competitions and sporting events and that I'd used my time and the opportunities at University to my advantage. Maybe they saw there was more to me than just a degree. The interviewers certainly did and I was offered, and accepted, a training contract. Maybe those who criticise just don't understand the needs of dynamic law firms who require more in their trainees than just a degree.

MH, Norwich,

I really sympathise with Lesley the mature student and the Cambridge student. HR departments are blinkered: they take no account of the fact that A levels and degrees have got much easier in recent years, so candidates who got Bs or a 2:2 degree 20 years ago are rejected out of hand. I have seen the level of students on my LPC with 2:1 degrees and some of them would not have got a 3rd class when I was doing my degree 20 years ago. Incidentally I recommend the Cambridge law student to ignore the advice of Rachel Massey. When it comes to recruitment, due to the short-sightedness of HR departments you'll be judged against people doing much easier degrees than you and ditched if you don't have a 2:1, even though you've already proved yourself by getting to Cambridge. I advise you to work your arse off for three years then rest on your laurels for the rest of your life: your degree result is the only thing recruiters look at.

MK, London, UK

I would like to reply to the comment from the law student from Cambridge. Being expected to work so many hours a week is not exclusive to Oxbridge, I am expected to do the same amount of out of lectures, individual study as this, and, being non-law and thus completing applications in my final year rather than my second, also currently have to deal with my dissertation as well as five pieces of coursework at this moment in time, as well as sorting out my hundreds of application forms and interviews. But university life is what you make it. If you are at Oxbridge make the most of it - go out and do something, make the most of the advantages you have available to you. I'm sure a masters is very appealing to recruiters, but there is more to a person than their academic credentials - nobody will want to work with someone who does nothing but work - what will there be to talk about with them over lunch breaks?!

Rachel Massey, Durham,

For mature students the situation is nigh on impossible. Having taken A' levels 22 years ago when they were harder and hardly anyone got all a's or b's I find it astonishing that the shortsighted recruitment departments overlook 17 years of banking experience in favour of 3 A grades! I expect that fact that I will probably get a first will be of no help to me either, damn those A' level results....

Lesley (mature law Student), Orpington,

What is really demoralising is when the HR departement seems to completely overlook the differences in the degrees of applicants. I am not a snob, and I accept that many talented and able people did not get into Oxbridge who deserve to be here. But, as a student expected to work what is probably a minimum of 65 hours a week, in a demanding subject and in an intensely pressured environment it is very disheartening to get the impression that my degree, which I am working so hard for, is overlooked in favour of thise with masters, more work experience,..And, unsurprisingly I don't do as many extra activities as those with lighter workloads. I would like the graduate recruitment team to look at my weekly reading...

law student , cambridge,

just an idea but if an applicant had say a decent 2.1 say around 64% or so okish and around 290 ucas points would an additional masters degree go a long way to improving said applicant's opportunities at some of the bigger firms?

law student, bristol,