RE: Cambridgeshire Police policy on issue of Penalty notices for disorder. (Jenny Rayner Comment)
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Information suggests that the police in Cambridgeshire wish to issue PND’s as quickly as possible with little if any consideration to the crime (its Value) or the victim. The issue of a PND is classed as ”recordable” and thus counts as both a DETECTION & OBTJ (offence 2brought to justice”) however the recipient is not classed as Guilty, has no conviction nor is his payment and acceptance of the PND any admission of guilt. Indeed it is stated on Cambridge police communications that HE IS INNOCENT (even though admitting the offence offering compensation and paying the PND.)
The government crime figures are thus most favourable in that RECORDABLE OFFENCES ARE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE DISPENSED WITH AND DETECTED..... (But no conviction nor criminal action or record??) usage of recording and counting of PND’s are a key factor in contributing to the PSA1 target to bring offences “to justice”.

Master Law, cambridge, University

Reality - most shoplifters that get caught are caught there and then, by shop staff.
1st option - the shop gets their property straight back, and if they're a first-time offender, the scumbag gets a £80 fine. Done. Finished. Total time – 1 hour max?
2nd option - the officer seizes the property as evidence (the shop may get it back after the court case several months later), then they spend the rest of the day processing the offender in the police station (custody procedures / their human rights, photos, fingerprints, medical checks, DNA, get them a solicitor paid for by you of course, get their appropriate adult because they're probably under 18, interview them, consult CPS) go back to the shop, take lengthy statements from any staff that witnessed the offence being committed and seize any CCTV evidence, return to the station, process CCTV into stills for evidential purposes, charge the offender, and then spend several hours completing all the files that must be done before the case can be sent to the courts to deal with. Total time – minimum 8 hours, plus the cost of other people involved (custody staff, CCTV analysis, solicitors, CPS, court clerks, etc, etc) Bearing in mind this could be for a packet of crisps…… Whish do you think is the best option?

PC Matt , London,

Certainly a useful measure to generate income. As for reducing crime or deterring it, a non starter Im afraid. The simple statistics tell us that. If they were effective, so many PNDs would not have to be issued. Crime cannot be reduced, only managed and displaced temporarily.

Frank Greaney, Formby, Liverpool

I was a victim of frightening criminal damage by a gang of loud drunks on 30th July 2007. It was early hours of morning and took 3 999 calls before my husband and I could get police to attend, by which time at least two taxies from nearby towns some miles away had already called and taken many of suspects away, The taxies waited for some time for police to visit but as passangers were getting "excited" and obviously drunk (or/and similar!?) the taxies had long gone before police arrived and my poor retired husband and I had to try to keep suspects there and our smashed home safe. OVER £500 worth of damage caused but we understand by phone the person admitted it and was issued a fixed penalty of £80 ??? same morning! the police decline to tell us the name or address etc of the person that caused the damage so I am unable to take further action for compensation.
The police seem KEEN to keep criminal conviction figures DOWN - (the fixed penalty system does NOT produce crime conviction.

Jenny Rayner, Cambridgeshire, Police state UK

No longer police just revenue collectors, no wonder our once much admired police force have now joined, politicians and estate agents in the top 3 of those we hate most

J. Cox, london, uk

make the penalty fit the crime !! the full amount plus the fine.a £50 fine for £500 damage,wrong way round if you ask me..

c burgess, macclesfield, great britain

We don't need a Police State issuing summary justice and on-the-spot fines. The answer is fast track courts with a judge or magistrate presiding. Someone causing up to £500 or shoplifting up to the value of £200 should be taken straight to a Court like this and dealt with by due process of the Law, and charged an appropriate amount to repair any damage, or the cost of shoplifted items, plus a fine for the crime committed.
In the USA, drunks are kept overnight in a Police cell, and taken before a judge next morning. I don't see why it should take months for a minor case to come to Court. A lot of the shop-lifting in Windsor is by visiting tourists. They get away with it because the Police don't take them to Court, and they are off back to their own country long before any Court case would come up..... Not that you see many Police in Windsor apart from when the Guard at Windsor Castle is changing.

Beryl, WINDSOR, England

I shoplift £200 of goods, I pay £80 and don't receive a criminal conviction : Profit £120. Nice work, if one can so describe it.

Current proposal from the police and under active consideration by the Government : I exceeed the speed limit by 1mph, or drop a sweet-wrapper in the street:; they take my DNA and I join the ranks of murderers, rapists, bank-robbers etc. on the Big Brother database.

We are beyond farce and into something more than tragedy.

Martin, London,

Police use of summary justice outside of the judicial system is EXACTLY how the Gestapo amassed such fearsome power.

Adolf ensured that they could work outside of the judicial process, and therefore answerable to no-one except a single minister who effectively used them as Political police.

This type of policing has to be challenged.

Government targets on the use of these extra-judicial powers, coupled with the government encouragement to use anti terror laws on a more frequent basis for basic policing is leading us down a very dark and dangerous road.

IanP, Torfaen, UK

It's just another stealth tax.

Steve P, Leeds , England

Found an article from November last year that stated about half of the tickets went unpaid. So yes a waste of time, it just looks good until you realise that it's just another half-baked measure.

J Lynch , London, UK

What happens when the receiver of the PND cannot or does not for any other reason pay the fine within 21 days?

elliven sivad, Herts,

What has happened to the historic rights of Englishmen to a fair and impartial trial? Turning the police into judge, jury, and executioner has turned them into tax collectors and undermined the respect people once had for the bobby on the street.

Bob Evans, Anaheim, California

G Austin in Honkers, nearly two-thirds of the PNDs issued are not paid in full within 21 days. In 2004, 37.91% paid in full within 21 days; in 2005, this had shot up to 38.79%. 2006 only has provisional data.
PNDs have their place and are an effective tool, but over-use is all about statistics and government-imposed targets. The intelligence of the police, their discretion, is being wasted though target chasing. Crimes are usually caused by needy people, the government should be more concerned about, as they say, the causes of crime and help the citizens of this country with social, financial or mental problems Criminalizing citizens instead of helping them is not the society we want.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070604/text/70604w0061.htm

AJ, London,

Sounds more like a police state everyday. The more one hears, the more you realise that personal freedom is almost a thing of the past. If the police could be trusted to be fair and honest, perhaps it wouldn't be quite so bad - but they can't.

Chasing figures is really not what they are there for and why we pay them some very good salaries! You try an find a policeman if you want one.

As G Austin asked, how many of these were paid? Do do the government figures report that?

R Metcalfe, Bristol, England

How about the crime of "wearing an offensive T-shirt"?

The country is going mad!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/6943734.stm

Faldo Thritle, Elie, Fife

"But the surge in the use of penalty notices for disorder (PND) has also helped police to meet a key government target because they count towards a ministerial pledge to increase the number of crimes “brought to justice”. "
Sums it up PERFECTLY !!!!!
Its not about solving crime, its all about achieving targets set
Its said that a government afraid of its citizens is a good government. Not only is this government NOT afraid of its citizens, but it treats those citizens with utter contempt.

Peter Hesketh, Cheshire,

Are there any details on what percentage of the PNDs are paid? Is the PND still counted as a crime “brought to justice,”
if the name and address details given to the police turn out to be false? The article talks only about PNDs issued, not paid.

If the PND is still counted regardless of the accuracy of data collected then it seems a bit of a waste of time. The offender is happy as no fine for them, the police happy as they notch up another crime success and the government as they can say look at all these matters successfully cleared - the net result though achieves nothing.

Anyone know?

G AUSTIN, Hong Kong, China